). Yes, this was a smokers car. R134a vs R12 refrigerant? . It is made up of carbon, hydrogen, and fluorine. R134a is NOT less efficient than R12 Actually R134a is more efficient. Don't like the sound of custom parallel condensor. How an A/C Expansion Valve Works. B. Note that passwords are case-sensitive. When the sensor detects the refrigerant leak the sniffers lights glow and the sniffer makes a noise. R12 was once used in many air conditioning units as a refrigerant or cooling agent. A final difference is that most (though not all) R-1234yf cars will have a Suction Line Heat Exchanger. The original CFC expansion valve used for R12 needs to be replaced with an HFC one for 134a to feed the evaporator correctly. A/C receiver difference between R12 and R134a? But, if your car lacks enough condenser and you have many 100+ degree days then you may want to stick either increase air flow, add another condenser as we mentioned in The Mr. Ice Project or stick with R12. . This kit comes complete with Expansion valve, o-ring kit, and 1ft. I'm thinking I might have put too much oil in the system - everywhere i read had a different amount - the manufacturer of the compressor, the MB factory service manual, online forums. 3) A/C Compressor Always On. But as there's not a big difference, people say you can suffice with either. Look deep into the fins. R134a. The aux fan seems to be working fine - it switches on occassionally. Compared with the cost-performance ratio, R507 is 30-40% . MB has specfic test parameters for performance, but you can always test at max load - doors open fan on highest speed.The oil overcharge looks like a parabolic curve. The chemical composition of R12 and R134a differ. This chart has a column of ambient (outside) air temperatures on one side and a corresponding range of high side pressures on the other side. R12 can move more heat than r134 so when it isn't very hot and the system isn't maxed out you wont be able to tell the difference but when its 110 out and the inside is 140 R12 will cool the cabin temp faster. If you find any of these conditions you will want to liquid flush (with dedicated AC flush solution) all the lines, condensers, evaporator (remove the expansion valve) before you proceed further. Break out the new gauges and measure hi and lo at 1500rpm, and do the Merc FSM test to see how we're doing performance wise. He used thermostatic expansion valve and Capillary tube for analysis with R12. Large temperature difference between expansion valve inlet and outlet oReplace expansion valve Air . R-12 - yellow R-134a - light blue R-22 - green R-402A - light brown (sand) R-402B - olive R-404A - orange R-407C - medium brown R-410A - rose R-507 - teal J Originally Posted by goldNSX. Then at least I'd know really where I am on it. hardly noticable. System has been working fine for a year. 4.3 out of 5 stars 491. 4) Inconsistent Airflow. It will work and there will be very little, in any difference in performance.As Chick stated, the difference is only the gas used in the sensor tube. It is also used in automotive car conditioning and the plastic industry. Then again, there are two different expansion valves. In no particular order, here's what I've found out regarding answering the questions posed so far:Fonebone - It is definitely an R4 compressor (they left the c off the front and the p off the end, i.e. How is the vent airflow?I would jumper the aux fan & check the performance. Heres R12 vs. R134a pressure chart. The general practice of charging the system with 15% less refrigerant adds to the thermal deficiency of R134a. Quick View. By after changing just about everything, he got what was termed, satisfactory cooling. You can use the R134a retrofit capacity chart for this purpose. Accessories Pumps, Cooling Towers, Evap Condensers, etc, Components Valves, Motors, Condensers, Evaporators, etc, Duct Systems Design, Installation & Practice, Piping Systems Design, Installation & Practice, Control System Design, Installation & Practice, Pro's Forum: National Electrical Code (NEC), Pro's Forum: Calculations & Electrical Theory, Pro's Forum: Electrical Business & Marketing. 1.5 ounces - hmmm. Though I have seen em run as cold as 12 deg F. If the thermo switch is malfunctioning. I'm doing one thing at a time so I know what the cause was. Big . Use strips of foam to couple the two heat exchangers if necessary.B. Unfortunately, the R12 refrigerant doesnt always blow cold air. R-134a is widely believed to be the most acceptable R12 substitute. and he synthesized R-134a in 1936, 5 years after R-12 was . It is made up of carbon, hydrogen, and fluorine. I cleaned the evap as best I could, if that is what you are getting at. Formula: (R12 Charge Specification x 0.9) - 0.25 lbs. But I've read that these car's didn't do too well in the a/c stakes, so that might just be as good as it gets. So the steps involved are cleaning out the old oil, replacing all the O-rings, replacing the dryer, replacing the expansion valve, and converting the high and low side connectors from Schrader to quick connect valves. When you add fluorescent tracer dye to with the refrigerant oil it helps to track down leaks that push oil out of the system. And I lied about the compressor switches on this car - there are 2 switches on the drier - a temp and a pressure switch. Yep, definately not a meat locker. The safe high side pressures are determined with a PT (pressures and temperatures) chart. I mean, really a lot. It was later found that R-134a had a very high Global Warming Potential, or GWP, number. I had a pair on my SAAB that seemed ok - but new ones ran 20% faster!Your best clue to airflow issues is a 60 mph test. According to the thermodynamic characteristics, it is close to the R12 freon, however, it is 10-15% worse in terms of cooling capacity and is more fluid. Mark Baker R-401b is the mixture by weight of 61% R22, 11% R-152a and 28% of R-124. In cases such as this, the required capacity value of the expansion valve with R134a is reduced by 30% (correction factor 1.42). Make sure to wear safety gloves, goggles, and shoes when theres a possibility of exposure to the chemical (R134a). Should I do the test again with the the aux fan jumpered? So I probably put the highest suggested amount in to be safe. The difference really shows up on the high side. Low refrigerating effect per pound: In comparison to other refrigerants, the refrigerating effect of R12 per pound is low. It won't be optimal, though. We've updated our forums!Click here to visit the new forum, Year: 1991Make: Jaguar Model: XJ6Engine Size: 4.0. The pressure at low temperatures is nearly the same between 12 and 134a. R1234yf is more environmentally friendly and has a global warming potential of 4. If the charge is low the compressor will cycle on/off in the max AC position. That way I will have reduced the oil by about 1/3 (assuming the oil is mixed evenly through the system). Only show this user. The best oil that runs well with R134a is PAG oil or Polyalkylene Glycol. It can be used applications like walk-in coolers, food and dairy display cases, domestic refrigerators, and beverage dispensers and vending machines. Besides, R134a refrigerant was manufactured after R12 was banned to help reduce the harshness of the old chemical (R12) on the ozone layer. The pressure/temperature curves for R-1234yf and R-134a are very similar. Attach the R134a charge port adaptors, there are two types.. one of which you need to remove the old R12 valve cores. Took me a while to figure that one out, and how to say that. The catalytic converter is an essential component of your car's emission system that helps save the environment from harmful emissions. Also, would a genuine R12 TXV be better, or is it too marginal to worry about?I think I should do the FSM test for performance - they have a graph with ambient temp and a/c temp. The Wikipedia explanation for expansions valves cited in Frank's thread says that the gas inside the bulb in the metering valve is the same as the refrigerant in the system. You should keep in mind that recharging your air conditioner improperly could result in more serious damage. As illustrated in the chart below, the curves below run together nearly throughout the curve, only slightly breaking paths at around 250 psig/150 degrees and above Flammability/Safety R-1234yf has been designated as MILDLY flammable. The ARPA Zone/Open Membership Discussion Forums. 1) Warm Air From Vents. R134a refrigerant is lighter than R12. R134a systems operate at higher discharge-side pressures than R12, which can cause compressor seals to leak. Instead, top off R12 with R134a refrigerant. You'll get marginally better performance out of the change as the expansion valve is matches the refrigerant characteristics. The symbol implies that R12 is a composite of carbon, chlorine, and fluorine. I have just bought gauges. Maybe a jerky locker.I cleaned the condensor with the off the shelf ac cleaner stuff from Home Depot that I used on my home evaporator. Its chemical symbol is CH2FCF3. So, instead of using R12, other better options include R401b, R134a, R401a, etc. The expansion valve(Tx) is in the car at the inlet line to the evaporator with compressors you best get advice from an ac specialist shop as the differences could be the gas that it pumps some systems use R12 and others use R134a or later gas yes R1234yf Freon gas can be replaced by R134a; the newer systems were designed with this in mind so no, there will be no damage to the compressor but some time in . The R134a compressor has a 1/8" step in on the high side port. At the time I thought nothing of it, but now I am thinking maybe that is contributing to the system not working as well as it could. With R134a you do not rely on the site glass. Compatible with multiple applications: The major reason for the introduction of R134a was to replace R12, so it functions perfectly in the same range of applications like rotary, screw, and centrifugal compressors for air conditioning and refrigeration. If the system was upgraded by a professional it should have an upgrade sticker. This would become an expensive investment for a repair or service station to have unique dedicated equipment for every type of alternative refrigerant. In addition, R134a refrigerants are not only used in auto air conditioners, they can be used in freezers, aerosol cans, and refrigerators. Talk about what services you provide. That's a lot isn't it? . The cure is to use the newer R134a compressors is sealing washers that are different thickness. Then again, there are two different expansion valves. Gain access to our free AOP (Ask a Professional) Section to get real answers for your questions. system of 0.33 TR and refrigerant used was R12. = R134a Charge Level. The exact amount will vary with each car. Components Coils, Heaters, Motors, etc. Discussion in 'Technical' started by Jsarnold, May 25, 2012. The car never overheats, if that has any import. As R134A refrigerant has different operating characteristics and pressures this valve is not necesssry. Neuro spine Super Speciality Clinic - Above Apollo Pharmacy, Bangarpet Circle, Kolar - Bangarpet Road, Kolar Town. Bad Car A/C Expansion Valve Symptoms. Using R134a requires that Polyolester (POE) lubricant must be used in the compressor. I put one in my old daily driver '79 Chevy tank (r-12), and it really made a difference. These efforts to balance the system can not be realized if there are problems within the a/c system, such as: poor performing compressor, dirty condenser or poor air flow through the condenser, malfunctioning expansion valve, water or air in the system, improperly operating fresh air or heat input in the climate-air mixing system. Lasers don't do well on vent temps, a stick thermometer is better in that application. The good thing is that after you convert to R134 you can top off the system easily and cheaply. We say generally because the vehicle manufacturer may have a formula already worked out for the R134a conversion process. Not osmosis, but you know what I mean). Rich Membership Chairman Using R134a in an R12 system will cause the oil not to move with the refrigerant, causing a system failure and probably won't even cool the system well, if at all. Right now you know you have a bit too much, but with a CR4P compressor this is an insurance policy. I had to vaccum the system for 2 hours and recharge 4 oz of PAG oil plus 36 oz of 134A freon (3 cans). When ever possible you should ask the technician to note the same information on your repair bill and keep a copy in your glove box for future reference. Pray I can let some oil out of the compressor without losing my precious R12. Also the new quick connect fittings for the high & low side. Its chemical symbol is CCl2F2. 5) A/C System Failure. It is a known suspect that lets heat into the heat exchanger/core even when off because the mono-valve is on the exit side of the heater core. link to How to cut off a Catalytic Converter. These cheap kits usually have a few cans of R134a (either 12 ounce or 16 ounce), maybe an extra can of refrigerant oil, a few generic R134a charge port adapters and maybe some o-rings. The flammables have hydrocarbons. George Bray on Wed August 31, 2005 5:03 PM I believe the optimum supercool setting will vary slightly between an expansion valve for an R12, as compared to R134a, system. You are indeed 20% out of the OEM spec for cooling. Besides, its technology has been tested and trusted. A vacuum pump, a refrigerant recover system, quality service gauge set with both low and high side gagues, and much more besides the lessons to learn what to do and what not to do. All fans must work at 100% of the OEM rating. You'll want the expansion valve matched to whatever refrigerant you're using. Is the information not applicable to the old Pantera system? I don't believe it is but I had a service guy tell me it needs to be done. 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It is perhaps possible to locate a unit with a company that purchases close out or distressed merchandise. Concentration level: The R134a vapor dilutes the oxygen concentration in the air to a low level, thereby causing harm. #13. What is usually sniffed are all the connections in the system: hoses and compressor, condenser, drier, expansion valve and evaporator fittings. As for R134a and R1234yf, theres no room for conversion. of refrigerant insulation tape. R12 is otherwise called dichlorodifluoromethane is a colorless gas (chlorofluorocarbon halomethane (CPC) that is used as an aerosol spray propellant and a refrigerant, and is soluble in organic solvents. we convert older systems where i work all the time and they work fine. This can be very very expensive. Gnats & mosquitos will clog deep. Theres no problem with using R134a in a home air conditioning system because it is a hydrofluorocarbon that doesnt cause environmental harm. I have some experience with auto a/c but not too much. It's helluva humid and hot here in north florida, and I drive around all day for my job. You can spend long evenings reading about the differences between the two refrigerants. Operating Pressure/Temperature Differences The pressure/temperature curves for R-1234yf and R-134a are very similar. If your a/c system is empty/low on refrigerant, if your system has a leak or if you need to open the system, then now is the time to decide which refrigerant you want to use. Do I leave the orignal condensor in, etc?Thanks. We, the Rxmechanic team, have presented a well-detailed comparison of R134a vs. R12. R12 was once used in many air conditioning units as a refrigerant or cooling agent. Is that why expansion valves are specific to R12 or R134A? -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." Poc temps desprs van decidir unir els dos webs sota el nom de Xarxa Catal, el conjunt de pgines que oferirien de franc sries doblades i/o subtitulades en catal. The MB chart shows 360 psi with R12 in some conditions. R134a is the most widely accepted alternative automotive refrigerant used to replace R12. Different correction factors are applied to other refrigerants. Answer: OK, I'll bite. They examined the two configurations of capillary tubes i.e. A. Pressure/temperature table for R12, R134a, and R513A is shown in Figure 1. . -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." Since then, the industry standard has been R134a, which is an efficient replacement. I'm just trying to help you avoid headaches in the long run. The only difference I can imagine would be the recharge connection. This is an electronic tool that sucks in air through a tube and across a sensor. The money you will save by will pay for the R12. Failure to abide by the EPA regulations can result in expensive fines for either you or your service technician. had writing on the side that said R134a. R134a Refrigerant Recharge Kit with BPV31 Bullet Piercing Valve and R134a Quick Coupler, R134a/R-12/R-22 Freon Refrigerant Hose Can Tap Kit for A/C System - Easy to use. -------------------------Just another brick in the wallHad a little mule I fed him castor oil and every time he jumped the fence he fertilized the soil, The older expansion valves were filled with the refrigerant they were used with, the replacement valves (today) are filled with a different chemical to work with both refrigerants..Hope this helps-------------------------ChickEmail: Chick---------------------------------------------Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose, I believe the optimum supercool setting will vary slightly between an expansion valve for an R12, as compared to R134a, system. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. What is a T/C?4. How about evacing 1 pound of refrig from the system, and then putting 1 lb of pure R12 back in? If your cars system has a sufficient condenser design and air flow to expel the greater amount of heat extracted by R134a, then by all means you should convert over when the time comes. Read on for more information about using automotive r134a in a refrigerator and vice versa. In this study, without the need for major modifications to the bus air conditioner, the variation of the ejector dimensions according to different parameters has been investigated in the case of using the R1234yf, R1234ze(E), or R600a refrigerants, which may be a substitute for R134a as a refrigerant due to . Therefore, its most suitable for both commercial and domestic environments. Please enter a password for your user account. A. Pressure/temperature plot of R134a vs. R12 is shown in figure 1. The ratings for evaporator temperatures 40F, 20F, -10F, -40F in the capacity tables are in accordance with ANSI/ARI = R134a Charge Level R12 Expansion Valve = 201 830 06 84 R134A Expansion Valve = 201 830 04 84 Is there a difference after all? An extra half ounce? Generally, the new amount is 75-85% of the quantity advised by the manufacturer. There is only a temperature switch on these cars as far as I recall, and it just switches on the aux fan. $21 . Replacement expansion valve for R134a or R12 A/C refrigerants, with O-ring connections. 5. The higher the ambient temperature the higher the high side pressure. If you have 10 ounces of oil in the system, that is contributing to the poor performance as well. I've straightened the fans I can and sprayed simple green on it, let it soak then hosed it down well. Here are the basics for converting a system that does not have a charge of R12, its empty. The sticker typically has a place to note the amount of refrigerant used, the type of oil and amount of oil, the technicians sign off or name and the date of the conversion. Can I order a valve based on the original eaton number? Comparatively, larger R134a molecules should take more space, and a smaller amount might be required. The analysis focuses on Coefficient of Performance for . I remember I had the wrong seals and it leaked some oil, so I put some more in.Bohica - I tested the pressures. Then when it is switched off for a few minutes and then back on, the air cools again. evarporator, expansion valve plus flushing out the full system and replacing all the o rings. I'll put the relay on for that. Spray it deep, and let it sit for a few minutes. It cycles on off in med (or low for that matter)Gotta tell ya. The only material difference between automotive A/C and a window A/C unit or refrigerator is that in the home application, the components are all inside the same rectangular box, but in the automotive application, the components are distributed throughout the car. The mechanical fan & clutch should be checked as well. Heres some important advice Whenever you notice your R12 refrigerant is leaking, turn off all flames and open the doors so it can escape to the open atmosphere. Thread starter goldNSX; Start date 1 August 2009; Tagged . The name of the oil is Polyol Ester (POE). R404a for freezing of product. asia pacific stevie awards 2021. gin, amaretto cocktail. The #1 question asked by NEW MEMBERS. R12 is simply too expensive for a 25+ year old A/C system. As noted, measure up front as best as you can to get as close to the aftermarket dim. 30 deg is pretty coldSystems generally run between 40 and 43 deg. It is mixed with the freon for the most part, and does accumulate in all components in small amounts. I dont know why the cost difference between compressors is so huge, though. Later model cars that come with 134A will have 134A only connectors. It won't be optimal, though. R-12 expansion valves can be re-used, but will not be as efficient as R-134a specific ones because of the slightly different pressure specs of R-12 vs. R-134a. 34 in 70 series w/ R12 in 100+ Tucson, AZ summer heat w/ hd-t, w/ 13B-T is was unbearable about 31 at vent w/ R12. Electric fans do wear out. If the water valve is not closing all the way you will have re-heating of the cabin air.The cabin blower was not exactly a powerhouse - it was rated at 200w. Most of all the differences gravitate to longevity, functionality, and safety. If you have the work done, be sure you find a true "A/C" shop that can make up lines. Debug the condensor (I am a computer nerd after all!)3. The system has been previously converted to R-134a. BTW, I use a stick thermo in the vents and the laser on the condenser. However, R12 refrigerants are still used as fire retardants in aircraft and submarines. The oil is spread all over your system when it is at rest. Thanks again. Compressor. Trinary Pressure Switch $ 39.99. might be due to charge or different compressor and age. Also, they are mostly used in refrigeration and automotive air conditioning systems. R12 Expansion Valve = 201 830 06 84 R134A Expansion Valve = 201 830 04 84 Is there a difference after all? Just leave it alone for now. ing the expansion valve, a maximum opening superheat of 7F, and a standard factory air test superheat setting. Refrigerators generally utilize R22, R32, or 410A-based coolants as their cooling agent. _____ 2012 E350 2006 Callaway SC560 . Participate in over 40 different forums and search/browse from nearly 3 million posts. You do not want to exceed the systems high side recommendations. The system will be checked for gross leaks while under vacuum. At the moment, the ac is acting up - will work fine for about 15 minutes and then slowly the vent temperatures rise until the compressor switches off. Catalog E-1, Thermostatic & Automatic Expansion Valves / Page 1 Table of Contents . I had a 1991 BMW switched to 134a by just changing the low pressure charging valve, flushing and refilling with 134 (maybe with 10% . Most vehicles manufactured before 1993 have the R12 A/C system. It won't be optimal, though.On some/many valves, you can adjust them, but that might make matters worse unless you really know what you're doing (which I don't!).RegardsGeorge. That switch should close @ 52c. Can I use the one for the R-12? You either get a system that will function well with R1234yf or get any other type. There is more to check.The evaporator must be clean as well as the condensor - was this a smoker's car?You should check the water control valve for the heater core. Best for varieties of operating conditions: Its boiling point is -21.6 Celsius. Crap! difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve . Do a pre-inspection and then Evacuate (vacuum down) the system, the longer the evacuation the better but there is a point of diminishing return, 2-3 hours is generally very good. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve why is miles raney not on homestead rescue June 21, 2022. manila mayor candidates 2022 A capacity curve is shown in figure 2 for relative capacity of R134a vs. R12 for evaporating temperatures from 0F to 50F. gital control scheme. Inhalation of vapor: Inhaling a large amount of R134a vapor can lead to drowsiness, temporary nervous system depression, and lethargy. The condensor airflow drops off as the fan clutch dies slowly. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valvewarning signs for a deteriorating patient with covid 19 infection 2022.07.03 18:36 18:36 Welcome to rxmechanic.com. R-134a can actually cool better than R-12 in a well designed R-134a system as it has better thermoconductive properties, but all the high pressure issues have to be addressed.But even when these cars were brand new, didn't cool worth a damned, recall almost dying in one in Las Vegas at the time, but a good way to lose weight with gallons of perspiration pouring out, just don't let that drip on the seats, that is inappropriate. Recovery & flushing is the only way out of an oil overcharge in your vehicle.B. Is there a difference in the expansion valve for R12 as opposed to R-134a? Is checking the temperature of the in and out of the condensor not the easiest way to tell if it is doing a good job or not? You do not have to split up the 5-6 oz of oil and add it to each component, just simply put it all in the compressor as it will move throughout the whole system once the system is operational. It's best to determine on a case-by-case basis while monitoring system pressures and output air temperature. (On firewall where A/C lines go into cab.) R12 systems used mineral oil, but unfortunately mineral oil doesn't dissolve in R134a. Any advice appreciated. You will be fine with a 134a-compatible TXV running R12. 1) Look Here at the available sizes of PF condensors.2) Go look at your vehicle's condensor & mounting. First, differences in physical properties: 1, insoluble R12 compressor oil is used (to reduce the lubricant) 2, dissolved sealing materials are used (resulting in refrigerant leakage) 3, easy to damp (so easy to internal . Is there more info needed?THanks -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a, Paul:I had to dig a bit deeper - MB made several running changes in the 1983 123'sThere are actually 4 different circuit diagrams for the A/C system that year - just for your 123.123 I found the R4 reference, and it should have 170 Ml of oil in the system.Your aux fan should run at the ambients you listed. According to Wikipedia, There is such a thing as "r132a" (1,1-Dichloro-2,2-Difluoroethane), however there is no indication of it being a commercially produced refrigerant. So you could likely put off buying those new hoses just a bit longer if you wanted. look at the difference! A thermostatic expansion valve (TXV) (see Figure 1) is a refrigeration and air conditioning throttling device that controls the amount of refrigerant liquid injected into a system's evaporatorbased on the evaporator outlet temperature and pressurecalled the superheat. (The .133 is the 300D Turbo).So, what does your compressor look like?B. For those of you who are considering what the cost is for R12 you can think of it this way: Dont go out to dinner this weekend. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. R12, on the other hand, has an ozone depletion potential of 1, implying that it can damage the ozone layer. The larger fitting goes on the discharge port and the smaller fitting goes on the suction line or compressor inlet / suction port. The compressors used by refrigeration plants to compress gas require oil to help lubricate its moving parts. Paul:A 1983 240D should have a York compressor on an OEM system. A. Pressure/temperature table for R12, R134a, and R513A is shown in Figure 1. .
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