Also, I have pretty much explained what you have just said. The rest of the argument as far as damage goes, should be common sense. Hunt! If I wanted to hit a little harder, I would maybe look for a WC .45 mold in the 220 to Your shots have to count. Okay all handgun are garbage. As I have read your comments and, also read many debates including what science says. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for A tenured officer responded to a violent male mental on a *TD bus. I do like the capacity of the 9mm for in town carry and lighter weight than my Govt model 45s. How about some scientific caliber comparisons with the same type bullet and velocity range and most common weights. A .223 is just 55 grains. Projectiles incapacitate by damaging or destroying the central nervous system, or by causing significant and potentially lethal blood loss. Weband 45 expands slightly more than 9 mm This also depends on specific round construction. Id use either! I believe you are in some way getting a kick back from someone, wanting to push the idea that the 9mm is more affective than the 45. Think the title of this article is misleading. Handgun wounds include the first three of these factors, but generally do not include the fourth. I will never personally take a life if I have the chance to stop someone with a non lethal GSW. But if stopping power is your only indicator of success in battle, then I suggest a WWII 16 inch navy rifle same as the Battleship Missouri ! Ret. I can concealed carry and the weight of my Ruger compact 9mm is about as heavy as I want. Cpl. I think the armchair warriors need to think about how a pistol is barely effective in military situations. Ben, enlightened folk like you (and myself) understand that politics is ALWAYS at play on some level!! But a high-muzzle weapon shatters that bone into hundreds of microscopic pieces, in a way that cannot be repaired. The human body experiences four main types of acid-based disorders: metabolic acidosis, metabolic alkalosis, respiratory acidosis, and respiratory alkalosis. Especially when it carries nearly double the mass with the bullet? Damage: 62. 9mm capacity! A pistol just sucks in that situation. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please fill out our survey about your experience after being shot. He became an FBI agent and served in the FBI for 30 years, retiring in the position of supervisory special agent/chief division counsel. For me I have a 9mm that is concealable as well as my AR15 223 and like some of the others on here I would rather us my 15. It is also of considerable general interest if for no other reason than to show how often the movie makers and novel writers make appalling blunders. Of course, smoothly drawing a handgun leads directly to another subject: which holster is best for those concerned with personal protection? The .45, for instance, is slightly slower than the 9mm, but features a more massive projectile, with 250 grains of mass compared to the 9mms typical 115 grains. He carries a nine personally currently because of the round capacity but in combat 45. But with the way things are going today I decided it was time, so I just bought S&W M&P 9 Shield. I enjoyed reading all of this info but didnt once read the real reason the .45 was originally better at stopping than the .36 cal. To the extent the wound components cause or increase the effects of these two mechanisms, the likelihood of incapacitation increases. A 4 inch Redhawk 45 colt loaded with 24 grains of H100 under a 335 grain Cast performance sledgehammer should be good against the largest carnivore Todd. Now good defensive hollow point is a different story. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. When theres no more powder burning to push the projectile, it decelerates. Matthew McConaughey tells the story of those killed in Uvalde in emotional plea for action on guns. Let me suggest that politics might be at play. Handgun velocities top out at around 1,500 fps at the muzzle. But we generally would refer to them as cartridges or rounds as a bullet is just the projectile portion encased in a cartridge and loaded into the firearm. Ive been training for 50+ years and continue to do so. Accounting for human anatomy and the fact that an agent may fire at a suspect from a variety of angles, it was established that 12 inches was the minimum I own 9mm, .40 and .45. But thats me. Lexipol. and I guess $$.. Thanks for reading and commenting!! Now lets talk about wound cavities caused by different caliber handgun rounds. After 22 years as a combat soldier, I am kind of partial to the .45 ACP, but I shoot modern, guide rod equipped with aftermarket sights, not rack guns. He was 15.. So for over a couple hundred years size mattered in stopping power, or say incapacitating an opponent. Both really do not muster up for the Marines. Another deputy acquired a .45 and was having trouble being able to qualify with it. SEMPER FI. By now, people should have realized that it is 100% personal opinion and preference. The 45s power and bullet size vs. the 9 mm Luger round was I know a LEO that works in Mendocino County CA. This is why officers typically carry as many shoulder weapons as possible in their cars. The FBI has made a pragmatic decision that the 147 grain 9mm bullet is the best bullet for its agents because it allows for more rounds in the handgun. A majority of FBI shooters are both faster and more accurate using 9mm Luger versus .40 S&W rounds. I guess I might be a little old school, 1911 45, M1 Grand in 3006, or M1A in a 308, these are older, but they have not made better guns or calibersI still have a glock and some 9s, but only because If I do have to use it I dont want to lose my 1911, and yes I have a AR15, but still like the A1 more. Fire Rate: 1,000 rounds/minute. The only reason law enforcement and, military use a 9mm is budget. A .45 ACP will encounter greater resistance than a 9mm, but it also carries more weight, albeit at a slower velocity. Heating effects, occurring mostly around 2.45 GHz (which is the frequency used in microwave ovens) Ionizing effects, which can damage human body and cells; Here is a picture of how the radiowaves penetrate the human body according to the frequency. Which Id be inclined to think a .45 would transfer more force more immediately taking the spirit out of most. Surprising, I know, given the current state of affairs in DC. So, yes, they are looking at it with the assumption that modern 9mm JHP bullets perform very similarly to .40s&w and .45acp, and thus will move toward 9mm loadings for sidearms. My personal opinion is that the military has found that many recruits are unable to accurately fire the .45 and cannot manage the recoil. How about that..most people shot by handguns survive. If I ever have to use my firearm to defend myself or my family, I want all of the energy from that round to be expended in the target. Blood poured out of his chest cavity, she wrote. A 45acp will deliver more damage to a human body that a 9mm. The FEE reports that there are between 2.1 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually, which means youre more likely to use a gun in self defense than you are to be killed in a car accident. People like the OP of the TIFU have been shot right above their heart and lungs, with .223 and despite a nasty, nasty exit wound and the shot placement, walked it off. I like the P227 better. Basically what I'm saying is the .50 is almost the same size as .45 and the tissue damage is near the same. Maybe .22 LR? Meaning the shooter, where a second shot will go off up in the air. While this research is geared toward law enforcement officers, it cuts through the confusion, and provides common-sense, scientifically supported principles by which the effectiveness of self-defense ammunition may more generally be measured. And I suspect it could very well be the Sig P320 as it is the epitome of modular.. Through and through shots were the issue and the 9 just bounced of bones and exited. The FBI agents had loaded jacketed hollow point bullets into their firearms. I carry a Sig P226 9mm, or a Springfield 1911 in 45. Because capacity equals TIME. 158 gr 0.38" Special P and 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullets will penetrate both sides of a human skull. In the black powder days hollow points had not been invented yet and most bullets were round nose lead so the larger heavier bullet hit harder. I would go with the 38 Super + P. Now you have something to rely on. Immediately retired the Glock 17 and requalified with a Glock 21 Gen 4 after a long break. Enter https://www.police1.com/ and click OK. So its definitely capable. Plenty of gang shootings. Leave it to a bunch of idiot Marines to bring a pistol to a rifle fight. The absolute best thing that anybody can do, find a pistol that suits you that you like, get a high capacity round, and train yourself in situational awareness so you dont have to worry about shooting somebody on accident. Chris Bartocci on a YouTube video explains why MARSOC went away from this 1911. Give me a break!! Not to mention costs savings in ammo which is a big deal both in the government and civilian perspective. I think everyone should think back to why the 1911 was made. To each their own. Look for a box or option labeled Home Page (Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari) or On Startup (Chrome). We souped up the 38 special to produce it .The 10 Auto was dumb ed down to create the 40sw. The damage was far too extensive. Involved in a shooting with my partner. Supposedly he is firearms and forensic expert with the Rhode Island State Crime Laboratory. R45 Ammo Type: .45 ACP. To ensure fragmentation would be to make a round so fragile that it would virtually eliminate penetratration. also carry a lcp ruger 380 in a desantis pocket holster, covers the trigger guard real nice. Any weapon is only as good as its owner, making the person behind the trigger the single greatest factor in how much stopping power a gun ultimately yields. When fragmentation occurs, the permanent cavity expands rapidly and dramatically. So how can we expect people to take a human life so readily? Heck a well placed .22 in the head can get the job done. Then, theres the venerable .357 magnum, which, though smaller than the .44, comes roaring out of a barrel at speeds as high as 1600 FPS. A high-muzzle bullet, however, destroys whole areas of body. Out charges the male mental with a screw driver in his hand. I can make a kill shot with just under 1 sec at 60 meters with my .45. I have my personal preferences and it is the .45 ACP, next is the 40 S&W, down the line a couple of notches is the 9mm. Your body will make the shot while your mind hesitates every time! And here is where we get to one of the most important distinctions between military/LE and self-defense use; its also where I have some practical experience, having twice been the victim of home invasions, as well as having to defend myself in public in 4 other separate incidents. There was no blood on the floor below him. But whats the long term average? It appears now we have had to Dumb Down our .45cal. I agree with your bad guy statement, but when I was training to become a Paramedic and obviously most of the training was done in the ER so we definitely saw damner everything you can imagine especially a lot of gunshot incidents and what I can tell you was that we were able to save and keep more bad guys alive who were shot with 9mm multiple times than those who had been shot 1-2 times with a .45. Other human tissue in the body reacts differently. Different bullets and guns have different patterns. 15 round mag of 9mm FMJ unless you hit the heart better plan on using 3 to 5 rounds to stop the person. Creatine is an amino acid located mostly in your body's muscles as well as in the brain. Everyone should be mocking the .223 as a pea shooter. WebIn real life the tissue damage of the .45 compared to the 9mm is much more and ingame atm the difference is minimal. I have shot many different calibers. Handgun cartridges just dont do that. So the moral of the story is: if youre 5 foot tall, and weigh a hundred pounds, the last thing you probably want to carry with you is a 1911. Heart shot, rolled it on the spot. What we do know, however, is that when most people are shot, they fall down. The issue is the 9mm one penetrated which resulted in through and through shots. This makes rifle rounds significantly more damaging than their handgun counterparts. 3, both hemolymph ACP and AKP activities of P. clarkii were significantly decreased in the 30 and 50 mg/L groups compared to the control (P < 0.01).Similarly, PO activity also exhibited a significant reduction in the 30 mg/L group (P < 0.05) and the 50 mg/L group (P < 0.01), respectively.However, LZM activity showed a significant increase It is the concept that will underlie this entire article. The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (Americas most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it, . We look forward to serving you. So its purpose is based on design. For you to dissect their writings may be fun but not productive. Due to the heavy load some people with both types of weapons had malfunctions as the slide was moving too fast causing failure to feed. He is an NRA Pistol Instructor, a Colorado P.O.S.T. 9mm, I carry 147 grain Hp. A tool yes but not a valid substitute. The FBI just did the same thing. The reason is recoil. If you shoot someone through the skull with a .22 rimfire and penetrate their brain, you will almost certainly immediately incapacitate them. To make a long govt document short, the armor would likely stop a 9mm with a few bruises. Nobody I know whos had to use issue 9mm M882 Ball is terribly impressed with it, either for the way it penetrated light cover like auto bodiesadmittedly, if you are shooting at someone protected by an automobile chassis, you should have brought a rifle, if not a grenade launcher with HEAT rounds or something belt-fed with the black-tip ammo that have the depleted uranium coresor for the way bad people reacted to being shot with it, which was usually not at all for quite some time barring a hit to the brain or spinal cord, or multiple hits, as in the whole magazine and maybe another. Small, light, and more rugged than a lot plastic guns. Anyway, stay tuned we shall wait and see. There were 5 gunshots to his chest. Work scenarios out in your head before they happen. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter (i.e., recoil) and he too would be knocked down. Were investigating how it spends its money. So modern ammo IS NOT the reason to switch back to the 9mm. The old adage If its good enough for the military, its good enough for me. is just nonsense today. This can cause more than embarrassment. Never held a weapon till boot camp. Is the debate on 9mm vs. .45 (or .40) settled then? Both calibers have been proven to be effectively lethal.. Ive usually have to chase guys shot with 9mm. He also competes in USPSA and 3-gun competitions including numerous top-10 finishes at major matches and championships. Even after suffering multiple 9mm gunshot wounds, victims are capable of fleeing considerable distances. I thought I would never own a 9 mm. The 9mm isnt a garbage round but feeling better with these 230 grain Winchester Rangers loaded on my side. If youre being attacked or in the process of deterring an oncoming attack, fear can have an affect. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. Now let me add a little something about 9mm vs .45. I would make the same recommendation to all American law enforcement agencies who are considering a switch to 9mm handguns. An entrance wound is surrounded by a reddish-brown area of abraded skin, known as the abrasion ring, and small amounts of blood escape through. G27 with the 10 for EDC and G22 with 22 count mag for inside the house, 40 doesnt seem to have that much more pop than 9mm to me, and i have relatively small hands. So any caliber is better than none. The difference can be seen with pistol rounds, as well. But thats a subject for another article. I use a 1911 as thats what I learned on, prefer the way it feels in my hand. Looking back at the stories we told, and which stuck with us, during an eventful year. I believe politics carries the most weight.The military sidearm is the least political concern as far as what other weapons are available for them.The beretta was a good example.Far from the best weapon compared to sig & glock,it got us a deal to put missles in Italy . I immediately thought, I think Ive been shot. Took about 1Min until the shock yielded to the pain. However, others say that the lowly .22 LR has the best stopping power, since it stays in the targets body and bounces around, shredding arteries and punching holes in internal organs. 45 acp damage human body 45 acp damage human body on jun 11, 2022 on jun 11, 2022 The impact of the injury would depend on where the bullet went besides your stomach. The flesh can tear and cells can burst as the tissue erupts outward and then slams back. What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. If the Government is involved in any way, money will change hands. Nothing beats a 12 guage with 100 rounds of 00 and slugs. too powerful??? You are up close and personal with this guy. The argument about effectiveness, capacity, reliability, stopping power, etc has been going on as long as I remember, ad nauseum. Police usually shoot from a distance. I think its preference and if you can conceal it. Train, train train and when your done. WebThe human body can survive relatively high blast overpressure without experiencing barotrauma. While the tissue affected by the temporary cavity isnt completely destroyed like that in the direct path of the bullet, it does suffer trauma, especially if the bullet travels past less-flexible parts of the body, like bone or dense organs like the liver, which can shatter or rupture from the shockwave. This story of a Chicago-suburb police officer should answer that one for you. Anyone using the term bullets to discuss weapon capacity knows little about firearms and has no business writing policy.on them. Im in the process to actually buy one. first handgun i ever fired was glock27 .40SW she was snappy at first but 16 years later and after shooting lots of .45 and 9, i am back to .40SW for HD purposes. As a civilian with a concealed carry permit, my rule is that I will carry the heaviest, store bought self defense round that I can buy. I was shot with a 45acp in my right leg. Theres enough money saved that Obuma can skim the money from the DOD and get his pay raise, retirement increase and anything else his little heart desires. The tests resulted in the selection in 1989 of the 10mm bullet as the most effective and accurate round for FBI agents to carry. Both hit 15 first shot, .45 exploded watermelon leaving trails about 15 feet behind, 9mm put a hole in it nothing more. On the other hand, a .22 that you can carry easily and put into operation quickly and shoot accurately is probably not a good defense gun/round because to do enough damage requires brain-shot accuracy with each shot. He didnt get more than three feet from the bathroom. Project: Aftermath Wiki. My next handgun will be either a Ruger SR 1911 or a Kimber 1911 clone. , Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. They said, ja, the 9mm kills people just fine, as long as you use it the way anyone with any sense uses a pistol caliber. With the 45 2 at most. A little back ground, for almost 17 years that I carried a badge I carried a S&W 6 357 on a K frame as my service carry. Projectiles do not accelerate once they leave the muzzle. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. This gave the enemy a chance to still bury a spearhead in the shooters chest, before finally collapsing from internal damage and blood loss. 1996 responded to a domestic violence call shots fired. Note how velocity is squared, and mass is halved. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. Thanks for reading and applying some little used common sense to the debate. At 8yoa my dad taught me to shoot with a 1911. How does air resistance have ANYTHING to do with the terminal ballistics as they relate to penetration? The saga will never end. In the words of Dr. Peter Rhee, a leading trauma surgeon and a retired Navy captain with 24-years of service, talking about all handgun wounds including .45 ACP and 9mm, he said, A Handgun wound is simply a stabbing with a bullet. Colt Defender 3" 45 ACP; Colt Gov't 70 Series; Kimber Warrior, w/ Rail; Kimber Warrior II; Kimber Super Carry Pro; Kimber Super Carry Ultra, 45 ACP, 3" Remington 1911 R1 Enhanced 5" 45 ACP; Ruger SR1911 Commander 4 Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammerless the is bone different muscle mass fat and other bonds in our bodies All this newer powder and more efficient bullets. The only argument I have ever heard that actually makes any sense is the most recent comment where former law enforcement States the possibility of collateral damage from over penetration. This is important because of permanent cavitation: The greater amount of tissue that is destroyed, the greater chance of incapacitation, all other factors being equal. .. maybe for some people the 45 is too much power,. Riley, love your artical. /9mm has a lot more options when it comes to ammo but I prefer my Springfield XD .45 or my Kimber Custom II 1911. The saying The Quick And The Dead was true. When i was in the military in the 60s we still were using hard ball ammo and the same still applied. There ya go compromise just carry both. That the .45ACP slows down so much that its penetration is less effective than a 9mm? But ideally you need a brush rifle. The HRP is concerned with long-term health consequences of radiation exposure such as cancer, as well as adverse effects to the central nervous and cardiovascular systems. That said a handgun is only used to get to a bigger firearm..it was never ment to be used in longer than 30 meter engagements. Just came down from AK and bears and mad moose have been my biggest issue. Hollow point bullets are superior to round-nosed ones. Bowman, I carry a para-ordinance warthog in 45 when its cold.I shoot the gun enought to know I can hit what Im aiming at. I spent FAR more money letting her out every pistol they had for rent than I did purchasing her final choice. Another, was a 300lb black bear. In the above GIF of ballistics gel taking a .50-cal. Maybe Obamas army should be issued paint ball guns so there is a non-lethal component too.
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